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	<title>Comments for Joel&#039;s Blog</title>
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		<title>Comment on Using WolframAlpha to Hack Text CAPTCHA by In Search Of The Perfect CAPTCHA - Smashing Magazine</title>
		<link>http://joelvanhorn.com/2010/11/10/using-wolframalpha-to-hack-text-captcha/comment-page-1/#comment-2604</link>
		<dc:creator>In Search Of The Perfect CAPTCHA - Smashing Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Mar 2011 11:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joelvanhorn.com/?p=227#comment-2604</guid>
		<description>[...]  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Using WolframAlpha to Hack Text CAPTCHA by DaveK</title>
		<link>http://joelvanhorn.com/2010/11/10/using-wolframalpha-to-hack-text-captcha/comment-page-1/#comment-2184</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joelvanhorn.com/?p=227#comment-2184</guid>
		<description>The colour one is just a coincidence, it doesn&#039;t work at all.  Try changing the question to ask for the 1st, 3rd, 4th, first, or last colour in that list; it answers &quot;yellow&quot; to everything.  It even answers &quot;yellow&quot; if you ask it &quot;The purple colour in purple, yellow, arm, white and blue is?&quot;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The colour one is just a coincidence, it doesn&#8217;t work at all.  Try changing the question to ask for the 1st, 3rd, 4th, first, or last colour in that list; it answers &#8220;yellow&#8221; to everything.  It even answers &#8220;yellow&#8221; if you ask it &#8220;The purple colour in purple, yellow, arm, white and blue is?&#8221;!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Using WolframAlpha to Hack Text CAPTCHA by Joel</title>
		<link>http://joelvanhorn.com/2010/11/10/using-wolframalpha-to-hack-text-captcha/comment-page-1/#comment-2173</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2010 22:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joelvanhorn.com/?p=227#comment-2173</guid>
		<description>@David - Yeah, it does some arbitrary guess work, but could be easily improved.  However WolframAlpha have implemented it, it would be interesting to see if they use something like Text CAPTCHA&#039;s database as &quot;practice&quot; in tuning their algorithms....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@David &#8211; Yeah, it does some arbitrary guess work, but could be easily improved.  However WolframAlpha have implemented it, it would be interesting to see if they use something like Text CAPTCHA&#8217;s database as &#8220;practice&#8221; in tuning their algorithms&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Using WolframAlpha to Hack Text CAPTCHA by David Bandel</title>
		<link>http://joelvanhorn.com/2010/11/10/using-wolframalpha-to-hack-text-captcha/comment-page-1/#comment-2172</link>
		<dc:creator>David Bandel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joelvanhorn.com/?p=227#comment-2172</guid>
		<description>For most of these, it wasn&#039;t really parsing anything. For example in the question:

Which of these is a colour: monkey, bank or purple?

Nothing mattered other than that the last word was purple.

Change &quot;a colour&quot; to &quot;an animal&quot; and it will still give the same exact result about the color purple.

So far the computational knowledge engine is a failure. But, it will improve as it gets more knowledge and relationships.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For most of these, it wasn&#8217;t really parsing anything. For example in the question:</p>
<p>Which of these is a colour: monkey, bank or purple?</p>
<p>Nothing mattered other than that the last word was purple.</p>
<p>Change &#8220;a colour&#8221; to &#8220;an animal&#8221; and it will still give the same exact result about the color purple.</p>
<p>So far the computational knowledge engine is a failure. But, it will improve as it gets more knowledge and relationships.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Using WolframAlpha to Hack Text CAPTCHA by Netzwelt-Ticker: BSI gesteht Sicherheitslücke in Ausweis-App &#124; Flyer Poster Werbung News</title>
		<link>http://joelvanhorn.com/2010/11/10/using-wolframalpha-to-hack-text-captcha/comment-page-1/#comment-2168</link>
		<dc:creator>Netzwelt-Ticker: BSI gesteht Sicherheitslücke in Ausweis-App &#124; Flyer Poster Werbung News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2010 18:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joelvanhorn.com/?p=227#comment-2168</guid>
		<description>[...] neuartige Captcha-Sicherheitschecks zu umgehen. Wolfram Alpha, das ergab der schnelle Test von Blogger Joel van Horn, kann (beinahe) Captchas lösen, die Antworten auf Rätselsätze einfordern. Etwa: &#8220;Welches [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] neuartige Captcha-Sicherheitschecks zu umgehen. Wolfram Alpha, das ergab der schnelle Test von Blogger Joel van Horn, kann (beinahe) Captchas lösen, die Antworten auf Rätselsätze einfordern. Etwa: &#8220;Welches [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Using WolframAlpha to Hack Text CAPTCHA by Joel</title>
		<link>http://joelvanhorn.com/2010/11/10/using-wolframalpha-to-hack-text-captcha/comment-page-1/#comment-2166</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2010 16:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joelvanhorn.com/?p=227#comment-2166</guid>
		<description>@Rob

I think you are right that CAPTCHA&#039;s are not meant as an absolute means for protecting an application, but a way to slow down spammers and whomever else.  I like the idea of text CAPTCHA&#039;s making it easier for people to decipher and from an academic standpoint, playing more with sentence structure for increased strength could be interesting.  However, the effort that may go into that might not be practical for your cause?  Like you said, CAPTCHA&#039;s are meant as an obstacle, not anything more.

180 million questions is impressive!  I look forward to seeing how the methodology for creating questions evolves.  Good luck!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rob</p>
<p>I think you are right that CAPTCHA&#8217;s are not meant as an absolute means for protecting an application, but a way to slow down spammers and whomever else.  I like the idea of text CAPTCHA&#8217;s making it easier for people to decipher and from an academic standpoint, playing more with sentence structure for increased strength could be interesting.  However, the effort that may go into that might not be practical for your cause?  Like you said, CAPTCHA&#8217;s are meant as an obstacle, not anything more.</p>
<p>180 million questions is impressive!  I look forward to seeing how the methodology for creating questions evolves.  Good luck!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Using WolframAlpha to Hack Text CAPTCHA by Rob</title>
		<link>http://joelvanhorn.com/2010/11/10/using-wolframalpha-to-hack-text-captcha/comment-page-1/#comment-2164</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2010 13:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joelvanhorn.com/?p=227#comment-2164</guid>
		<description>Interesting how good Wofram is at decoding the logic. I&#039;m the author of the textcaptcha service -- I think its certainly true that textual captchas will never be as strong as their image counterparts, but they do serve a purpose in a middle-ground. I would hesitate about using them in a misson-critical situation as they form a weaker defence. On the most part CAPTCHAs are used as obstacles to spam rather than hard-line defence: whether this usage is justified is debatable and I believe there is a grey area. 

Rendering the questions as an image is not very helpful -- this negates the reason to use logic at all (why not a word), you need to provide an audio alternative and is not much of an obstacle as OCR is easy.

I&#039;ll have to have a think about the question construction, but it is a delicate line between making questions that are simply too confusing (or take too long) for everybody to actually understand and solve. I have thought about trying to grade question strength -- and allowing people to specify a question strength when they ask for questions: stronger questions would be harder to break but probably more difficult for real users to understand, and the decision would depend on your audience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting how good Wofram is at decoding the logic. I&#8217;m the author of the textcaptcha service &#8212; I think its certainly true that textual captchas will never be as strong as their image counterparts, but they do serve a purpose in a middle-ground. I would hesitate about using them in a misson-critical situation as they form a weaker defence. On the most part CAPTCHAs are used as obstacles to spam rather than hard-line defence: whether this usage is justified is debatable and I believe there is a grey area. </p>
<p>Rendering the questions as an image is not very helpful &#8212; this negates the reason to use logic at all (why not a word), you need to provide an audio alternative and is not much of an obstacle as OCR is easy.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll have to have a think about the question construction, but it is a delicate line between making questions that are simply too confusing (or take too long) for everybody to actually understand and solve. I have thought about trying to grade question strength &#8212; and allowing people to specify a question strength when they ask for questions: stronger questions would be harder to break but probably more difficult for real users to understand, and the decision would depend on your audience.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Using WolframAlpha to Hack Text CAPTCHA by Joel</title>
		<link>http://joelvanhorn.com/2010/11/10/using-wolframalpha-to-hack-text-captcha/comment-page-1/#comment-2160</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:27:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joelvanhorn.com/?p=227#comment-2160</guid>
		<description>@Matthew

I posted a comment on the Hacker News thread about that.  Questions will come in certain sentence structures that become predictable.  I think that, if text CAPTCHA&#039;s are to be harder for a bot to guess, the subject matter has to be much more abstract.  For instance, instead of asking &quot;what is the second color in the sequence blue, apple, banana, yellow, green, orange?&quot; (which can easily be learned and guessed by a bot) you need to ask something along the lines of &quot;how many people will have warm hands if you hand out 3 hats, 5 pairs of gloves, and 2 scarves?&quot;....  Or at least, maybe that gets closer?

Maybe a list of requirements/criteria need to be established against which each text CAPTCHA question is vetted.  Then again, it&#039;s just a CAPTCHA, so does it have to work 100%?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Matthew</p>
<p>I posted a comment on the Hacker News thread about that.  Questions will come in certain sentence structures that become predictable.  I think that, if text CAPTCHA&#8217;s are to be harder for a bot to guess, the subject matter has to be much more abstract.  For instance, instead of asking &#8220;what is the second color in the sequence blue, apple, banana, yellow, green, orange?&#8221; (which can easily be learned and guessed by a bot) you need to ask something along the lines of &#8220;how many people will have warm hands if you hand out 3 hats, 5 pairs of gloves, and 2 scarves?&#8221;&#8230;.  Or at least, maybe that gets closer?</p>
<p>Maybe a list of requirements/criteria need to be established against which each text CAPTCHA question is vetted.  Then again, it&#8217;s just a CAPTCHA, so does it have to work 100%?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Using WolframAlpha to Hack Text CAPTCHA by Matthew</title>
		<link>http://joelvanhorn.com/2010/11/10/using-wolframalpha-to-hack-text-captcha/comment-page-1/#comment-2157</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2010 06:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joelvanhorn.com/?p=227#comment-2157</guid>
		<description>@joel

There&#039;s another very important criterion for CAPTCHAs: they must be easy to generate computationally. If they&#039;re not easy to generate, then you get a small number of questions that the bot can cache.

It seems to me that a big limitation of text CAPTCHA is the limited range of query templates. You can write parsers for all of those templates pretty easily, defeating the system. Even if you only get 20% CAPTCHA hit rates, that just reduces the number of accounts you can get per IP address in a given amount of time. But you&#039;re still &quot;in&quot;m fundamentally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@joel</p>
<p>There&#8217;s another very important criterion for CAPTCHAs: they must be easy to generate computationally. If they&#8217;re not easy to generate, then you get a small number of questions that the bot can cache.</p>
<p>It seems to me that a big limitation of text CAPTCHA is the limited range of query templates. You can write parsers for all of those templates pretty easily, defeating the system. Even if you only get 20% CAPTCHA hit rates, that just reduces the number of accounts you can get per IP address in a given amount of time. But you&#8217;re still &#8220;in&#8221;m fundamentally.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Using WolframAlpha to Hack Text CAPTCHA by TextCAPTCHA And Cracking It at comp527</title>
		<link>http://joelvanhorn.com/2010/11/10/using-wolframalpha-to-hack-text-captcha/comment-page-1/#comment-2155</link>
		<dc:creator>TextCAPTCHA And Cracking It at comp527</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2010 03:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joelvanhorn.com/?p=227#comment-2155</guid>
		<description>[...] So there was some buzz about this new CAPTCHA technique that doesn&#8217;t require users to decipher ungodly distorted letters and numbers. Instead it uses logic questions to see if you are a human. It&#8217;s called TextCAPTCHA (http://joelvanhorn.com/2010/11/10/using-wolframalpha-to-hack-text-captcha/). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] So there was some buzz about this new CAPTCHA technique that doesn&#8217;t require users to decipher ungodly distorted letters and numbers. Instead it uses logic questions to see if you are a human. It&#8217;s called TextCAPTCHA (<a href="http://joelvanhorn.com/2010/11/10/using-wolframalpha-to-hack-text-captcha/" rel="nofollow">http://joelvanhorn.com/2010/11/10/using-wolframalpha-to-hack-text-captcha/</a>). [...]</p>
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